Monthly Archives: March 2007

Looking back, looking around and looking forward

Richard Yep March 29, 2007

Richard Yep

My May column is always an interesting one to write because I have so much to share regarding what has been happening. At the same time, I’m looking toward the close of ACA’s fiscal year at the end of June and, of course, thinking about our student members. Many of them will be moving toward the New Professional category of membership in the association.

Elsewhere in this issue of Counseling Today, you will read about (and see) things that happened during the ACA Annual Convention in Detroit. Despite planning for 2,400 attendees, we were overwhelmed (and quite happy) to welcome more than 3,000 professional counselors, counselor educators and students to the big event. Over the course of several days, a great deal of networking, career building and socializing took place. A great deal of information was also exchanged, whether informally or through attendance at Education Sessions. While some of us may have looked a bit lost at times in navigating the Marriott Hotel or the COBO Convention Center, we usually found where we needed to go. The energy and general atmosphere of the convention was very positive.

I will say there was one sad note during the convention. Jack Cloud, a longtime member of ACA and a great supporter of the counseling profession, especially to those just starting out in the field, unexpectedly passed away while we were in Detroit (see p. 48). Given Jack’s love of our organization, its people and its mission, he clearly was among some of his closest friends when he died.

Shortly after the convention concluded, his family very graciously designated the ACA Foundation as a place to make donations in Jack’s memory. If you would like to donate to the Jack Cloud Memorial Fund, send your contribution to: ACA Foundation, Jack Cloud Memorial Fund, 5999 Stevenson Avenue, Alexandria, VA 22304.

Believe it or not, the staff and leadership have already begun plans for the 2008 ACA Annual Conference in Honolulu, March 26-30. In fact, while we usually expect about 200 people to sign up for the “extremely early bird” registration at each convention in anticipation of the next one, we had more than 550 people sign up for Honolulu while we were still in Detroit! Something tells me that the various conference registration discounts, our ability to lock in a wide range of affordable hotel room rates and, of course, the location will help to bring many people to the event next year. Keep reading Counseling Today and visiting the ACA website at www. for updated information.

I noted that May is also a time when we see many of our student members transition into life as recent graduates. As ACA President-Elect Brian Canfield says, students are our “colleagues in training.” It is our hope that ACA will be there for all of our new professionals as they move from the challenges of classwork, research and dissertations to the world of work as a professional counselor. This is an exciting time. I know it may also be a time of concern, trepidation and anxiety. Again, ACA wants to be here for all of you. If you are one of these new professionals, we hope you will contact us for help.

To all of you who have completed your studies and will now be moving beyond your institutions of higher education, we congratulate you! We look forward to your continued involvement with ACA, whether it is for help in your career, your need for continuing education or your desire to stay connected to your colleagues, professors and mentors.

So, as I begin to store my winter clothing (which stayed out for an extended period of time this year) and look forward to warmer days here on the East Coast, I want to make sure that I thank all of you — students, professionals and retired members of ACA. Your continued dedication to helping people as they face many of life’s challenges is something that is always an inspiration to me. Thank you for all you do.

As always, please feel free to contact me with any questions, comments or suggestions by e-mailing or calling 800.347.6647 ext. 231. Thanks and be well.

Oh, the places you’ll go and the people you’ll meet

Marie Wakefield March 4, 2007

Over the past 10 years, I have had the privilege of facilitating the First-Timers event at the American Counseling Association Convention, often using “Oh, the places you’ll go” (think Dr. Seuss) as my opening. What a great opportunity to network and collaborate with colleagues and practitioners; provide information that may increase participation in branch, region and division activities; introduce leaders from various levels of ACA’s structure; and broaden the view of our organization’s vast resources.

I talked with many attendees in Detroit and decided to ask two first-timers to share their thoughts about the conference.

Areta Phillips: Even though I registered and made the necessary reservations, my first feeling was fear, and I asked myself what I was thinking. In all my many years, I had never before traveled completely alone, but I was determined not to let fear stop me. I wanted to expand my horizons, to push my limits, and this was one reason I came to the ACA Convention in Detroit. The airport was so confusing, but fortunately I got to the place where I was to pick up my luggage, and there stood a lady with a sign that read “ACA.” That was one welcome sight! Oh, the places you go and the people you meet.

Although I had been warned not to walk alone anywhere in Detroit, the COBO Center was three blocks away from my hotel. I could recognize other conference participants who were walking because of their badges and bags with the ACA logo. Everyone I talked to was friendly, but I was still very scared. Later, I was introduced to the shuttle and was able to go where I needed to be with ease.

I attended the Welcome Reception in the COBO Exhibit Hall. I still felt very much alone in the midst of hundreds of people, not knowing anyone. While many were in groups, it helped when one of the ladies at the table where I sat talked to me.

Highlights for me included (keynote speaker) Linda Ellerbee and the First-Timers Orientation and Mentoring Luncheon. Both were delightful. At the end of the program, a dear lady by the name of Carol took me up to the president’s suite and I met Marie Wakefield, the president of ACA. The support I felt heightened my spirit of feeling connected.

I enjoyed the Education Sessions very much, although I had a hard time choosing which to attend out of so many choices. My interest is aging, and I attended some very good sessions on the subject. Anytime I asked for help, whomever I spoke to was very accommodating. Sometimes the person would walk me to my destination. I felt strange being surrounded by all those Ph.D.s when I am still working on my bachelor’s at the age of 72. But I am convinced that the ACA people are the greatest.

Moses Powe: From a first-timer’s prospective, I thoroughly enjoyed my first ACA Convention. The events that had the most impact on me were the private practice seminar, which really motivated me to look into starting my own practice to create those multiple streams of income; the DSM-IV training, which was much too short but perfect timing for a refresher; and the Multicultural Mixer. I look forward to doing it all over again in Honolulu.

Many happy returns

People keep returning to ACA conferences for many reasons. Here is what a few of our colleagues said.

Nancy Gentis: I had not attended an ACA Convention since it was held in Reno, Nev. The academic sessions, the opportunities to be introduced to so many practitioners from a variety of settings and the vast amount of available new material was exciting. Oh, the places you go and the people who come. What was most impressive was to see all the past presidents. To be among them and talk with them was truly a privilege. Their commitment to the association and the profession is so cool!

Carol Shaw: Oh, the places you will go and the friends you will make! Through the years, I have attended over a dozen ACA conferences from the early nineties to Detroit. I am a retired middle school guidance counselor who is still trying to figure out what she wants to do when she grows up. At the ACA conferences, not only are my needs met in areas of interest, but I also feel new topics are constantly emerging. With that in mind, I have chosen to maintain my credentials — NCC and LCPC. ACA conferences have always been a great place to earn continuing education credits and to maintain connections in the world of counseling. I have been enriched by so many sessions that I have attended and the people I have met along the way. Thanks ACA!

Robert Chope: I attended my first ACA Convention in 1975 and gave two presentations there, one based on my dissertation and the other based on research I was doing at the time. The meetings back then were very formal. Papers were delivered from panels of five or six people, and the individual presentations were shorter. A great feature that is part of our conferences today is the poster sessions that have more research-related topics.

Oh, the places you go and the things you can do. I have been very active over the years in the American Rehabilitation Counseling Association, the Association for Assessment in Counseling and Education, the National Career Development Association and the National Employment Counseling Association. I think that ACA gives everyone an opportunity to be his or her personal best. Opportunities are available everywhere, although sometimes it takes a bit of mentoring to get people started. As a member of the 20/20 Committee, I saw colleagues I had not seen in 32 years. For me, the convention is a potpourri of excitement, a showcase of valuable contributions, full of energy and commitment to issues that concern me, such as social justice, serving the underserved in the employment arena and multiculturalism in career development.

What was different for me this time was that I was in meetings almost every day from 7 in the morning on. Part of this is being committed to so many boards and activities. However, I take the time to connect both at the presentations, the book signings and the social hours. I write for VISTAS and use the ACA Convention to try out new ideas. I closed both the ACA party and the AMCD party. Of course, I will be in Honolulu.

As you attend ACA conferences, what you take away professionally and personally can prove very rewarding in your circles of conversation. Sharing what you learned with colleagues is an excellent way to encourage others to share their own knowledge and expertise through presentations. It also ensures that we honor our many colleagues who have made contributions to the profession. Plus, it promotes the camaraderie and leadership development that can further evolve at branch, region and division events. So I hope to see you all next year in Hawaii.

There seems to be no shortage of counseling professionals who desire to make a difference and love doing just that! Thank you for your commitment, your participation and your engagement. I look forward to hearing from you and hope you will feel free to communicate with me via e-mail at or by calling 800.347.6647 ext. 232.

The ins and outs of fee collection

Robert J. Walsh and Norman C. Dasenbrook

Q: I need some advice regarding collections. I have a few former clients who have outstanding balances. They are not responding to my statements. The amounts are not great, but I realize these clients may not be the only ones, so I am looking for a reputable collections person/company. I don’t even know if I’m stating my need properly as I was with a group prior to my private practice, and this was handled without me being a part of the process. Do you have a suggestion about how to collect? In addition, are there HIPAA concerns about using a collector?

A: For most counselors in private practice, collecting fees is a disagreeable chore. It would be wonderful if each client paid at the time of service and we didn’t have to “chase” our money. After all, we got into this profession to help people. Nevertheless, as we have said many times, it is a business and you are the boss. To be successful, fee collection is essential. Even small amounts of fees owed add up. You deserve to be fairly compensated for your work.

Fee collection starts with your informed consent document. The informed consent is a binding contract between you and your client. Before counseling begins, all charges, fees and debt collection processes are detailed in writing. If you plan to use a collection agency, check your state laws and the codes of ethics of your state and national professional organizations. Some states may treat the use of collection agencies as a violation of confidentiality. If you can use a collection agency (and plan to, if necessary), that needs to be included in your informed consent, as well as who is responsible for the agency fee.

It is not a HIPAA violation to release information needed for billing and collection purposes. This potential disclosure of information should be in the payment section of the HIPAA Notice of Privacy Practices that is given to the client before counseling begins. Keep in mind, however, that just because it’s not a HIPAA violation doesn’t automatically mean it’s OK. The most restrictive law applies.

To find a reputable collection agency, ask other providers in your area. Collection agencies usually charge a percentage (approximately 30 percent) of the debt owed. That figure can be higher if there is court action. We don’t advise going to court to collect the debt. You don’t want a counter suit that ends up being more expensive than the original debt.

Q: I am a licensed mental health counselor in New York. I am trying to obtain status on insurance panels with some insurance companies. Has ACA formulated any type of relationship with insurance carriers that might assist counselors who would like to become participating providers? I am finding this to be a very time-consuming and challenging task.

A: Managed care and insurance companies do not deal directly with national organizations such as ACA, the National Association of Social Workers or the American Psychological Association. However, ACA has developed a Private Practice Initiative to help its members attempt to get on panels.

Go to the ACA website ( and click on the “Counselors” section, then click on the “Private Practice Pointers” button. Two different bulletins there may help you.

1) The Provider Relations Contact List for Managed Care and Insurance Panels. This comprehensive list of the top 55 managed care and insurance companies provides direct links to their provider relations departments. This should save you some time.

2) Managed Care Response Templates. These templates can be used to respond to denials or to help gain access to closed panels. Many counselors have found these letters to be helpful.

Another way to join panels is to use the Council for Affordable Quality Healthcare as a conduit. We have written about this in previous editions of Counseling Today. See the CAQH section in the same webpage cited above under FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions).

An issue for New York counselors is that your license is new, and many managed care companies require two or three years of licensed experience before allowing you to join their panels. On the state level, your counseling organization is doing a great job of working on these managed care issues. Check with them. Good luck with this.

Q: First, let me say your column in Counseling Today is excellent and extremely helpful! Your book has also been quite beneficial! Last year, I started a private practice in Alton, Ill. There is a local counselor (a Ph.D.) who is considering retirement. It was suggested I contact this individual to explore the possibilities of record transfer and client referrals. I am comfortable doing so. However, are there specific areas I should be concerned with or questions I should ask this individual directly? If there are specific Internet sites you recommend, I’ll be happy to research this more. Thank you for your time!

A: I would approach the retiring counselor and inquire whether he/she is looking for someone to take over the practice and, if so, what are the terms or conditions. Keep it open-ended until you get a feel for what the counselor is looking for, then you can get more specific.

We are not aware of websites that cover this topic. However, in the “Private Practice Pointers” (member’s only) section of the ACA website is an article we have written on buying/selling a practice.

Editor’s note: Also be aware that Standard C.2.h. (“Counselor Incapacitation or Termination of Practice”) of the 2005 ACA Code of Ethics states: “When counselors leave a practice, they follow a prepared plan for transfer of clients and files. Counselors prepare and disseminate to an identified colleague or ‘records custodian’ a plan for the transfer of clients and files in the case of their incapacitation, death or termination of practice.”

Rise up and ask for a raise!

Robert J. Walsh and Norman C. Dasenbrook

Q: I read in the private practice resource newsletter, Psychotherapy Finances (September 2006), that managed care and insurance rates are being reduced. What can the American Counseling Association do to help? What should we do? Drop all managed care contracts? Go for client fee for service? HELP!

A: Dropping all managed care contracts and accepting only fees paid by clients is one way to handle the problem. But doing that cuts out many clients who have paid into their insurance and expect to be able to use it for mental heath counseling. In many demographics, our practices would dry up unless our niches occupied the upper end of the income spectrum.

I (Bob) read the article you cited and did some investigating. I called Aetna, Value Options, United Behavioral Health, Magellan, Horizon Behavioral Health, ACI Specialty Benefits and Oasis Health Care. These are a fairly good representative sample of managed care and insurance companies. All their provider relations people assured me that they were not planning on reducing fees.

I then politely asked each one if there was a way to get an increase in reimbursement. After some negotiations, Aetna offered me a 12 percent increase. Value Options made no promises but said it is reviewing a possible increase across the country in 2007. United Behavioral Health said it would consider a reimbursement increase if I sent a request in writing outlining my reasons. Magellan will also be reviewing an increase in rates for 2007. Horizon offered me an increase from $65 to $70, while ACI gave me a raise from $60 to $67. Oasis is giving me a $5 raise to $70 on employee assistance programs and $75 on regular managed care.

Psychotherapy Finances reports that the companies it contacted will not deal with national organizations such as ACA, the American Psychological Association and the National Association of Social Workers. ACA Special Projects Coordinator Martha McIntosh has certainly tried.

Here is why this must be a grass-roots movement. First, it worked! I negotiated and received reimbursement increases. Second, if hundreds of counselors call managed care provider relations, you may not all get increases, but the managed care and insurance companies will certainly get the message that we are in need of better reimbursement rates.

One call came to me from a reader suggesting a class-action lawsuit or otherwise raising hell with the companies. We have found, and have proved, that polite inquiry and persistence work better. A list of the largest managed care and insurance companies is available on the ACA website (from, click on “Counselors,” then “Private Practice Pointers” and “Provider Relations Contact List”).

Do it! Call your managed care companies and ask. Remember, we encourage our clients to take risks to improve. Shouldn’t we? Also, please e-mail us about your experiences with managed care contracts, both bad and good.

NPI, NPI, NPI. We are still receiving many questions about the National Provider Identifier. HIPAA mandates that all health care professionals use an NPI beginning May 23.

Q: How do counselors switch from using provider ID numbers to the National Provider Identification when billing insurance and managed care companies using the standard insurance claim form?

A: Basically, three issues need to be addressed. First, you should be receiving forms from insurance and managed care companies by now requesting your NPI. While the deadline for compliance is not until May 23, many of the larger companies (Blue Cross/Blue Shield, United Healthcare, United Behavioral, Value Options, etc.) are gearing up now to be ready by that date. Please note that many companies will have their own protocols and timelines for converting from provider ID numbers to the NPI.

While it should go without saying, read the letters from the managed care and insurance companies asking for your NPI number, and make sure you follow each company’s protocol until the deadline. When submitting your NPI, do not forget to send the form in with a copy of the NPI confirmation letter or e-mail you received from the National Plan and Provider Enumeration System.

Second, after submitting your NPI to insurance and managed care companies, your NPI has to be included on all third-party billing no later than the deadline. This also requires you to obtain the new CMS-1500 (HCFA) health insurance claim form (approved August 2005). The difference between the old CMS-1500 and the new form is box 24J, where your NPI number is required. The new CMS-1500 forms are available from Medical Arts Press (, Safeguard Forms (815.539.7279) or your local OfficeMax.

Third, you will need to contact your practice software vendor to upgrade your billing program to accommodate the NPI and new CMS-1500 form. All major software vendors should have this upgrade available currently or very soon.

Q: We have been a member of ACA for many years and are in need of some assistance. We are attempting to file for a National Provider Identifier. After reviewing much of the information on the CMS website, we still are unsure of how to proceed. We are a very small clinic with one full-time and three part-time counselors on staff. Does each individual counselor need to apply for his or her own NPI, or do we apply for one NPI under the clinic? If each counselor needs an NPI and the clinic also needs one, which NPI do we bill under? We are also having some difficulty determining our taxonomy code from the diverse selection. Thank you for your assistance in helping us deal with this mandate.

A: There is a way to apply for an institutional NPI, but each therapist has to have his or her own number. Call the NPI hotline (866.282.0659) for questions related to aspects of the NPI legislation and regulation or other HIPAA-related matters. The NPI Enumerator may be contacted by calling 800.465.3203 or 800.692.2326 (TTY). I have called several times, and they have been very helpful.

Questions regarding the use of the NPI in health plan billing should be directed to the individual managed care and insurance health plan. Billing issues may have to be addressed to the managed care and insurance companies individually. You may be able to also clarify these issues with NPI.

We provide a list of the 55 major managed care and insurance companies with direct links to the provider relations page of their websites. This is available to members on the ACA website. From, click on “Counselors,” then “Private Practice Pointers” and “Provider Relations Contact List”.

We are also including the taxonomy website ( and a copy of the taxonomy codes used for counselors.

Behavioral Health and Social Service Providers:

E Counselor: 101Y00000X

  • Addiction (Substance Use Disorder): 101YA0400X
  • Mental Health: 101YM0800X
  • Pastoral: 101YP1600X
  • Professional: 101YP2500X
  • School: 101YS0200X

E Marriage and Family Therapist: 106H00000X
E Psychoanalyst: 102L00000X
E Psychologist: 103T00000X

  • Addiction (Substance Use Disorder): 103TA0400X
  • Adult Development and Aging: 103TA0700X
  • Clinical: 103TC0700X
  • Clinical Child and Adolescent: 103TC2200X
  • Cognitive and Behavioral: 103TB0200X
  • Counseling: 103TC1900X
  • Educational: 103TE1000X
  • Exercise and Sports: 103TE1100X
  • Family: 103TF0000X
  • Forensic: 103TF0200X
  • Group Psychotherapy: 103TP2701X
  • Health: 103TH0004X
  • Health Service: 103TH0100X
  • Men and Masculinity: 103TM1700X
  • Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities: 103TM1800X
  • Prescribing (Medical): 103TP0016X
  • Psychoanalysis: 103TP0814X
  • Psychotherapy: 103TP2700X
  • Rehabilitation: 103TR0400X
  • School: 103TS0200X
  • Women: 103TW0100X

E Social Worker: 104100000X

Seeing yourself as a businessperson

Robert J. Walsh and Norman C. Dasenbrook

Q: My goal for 2007 is to establish my own private practice. What do I need to do first to succeed in my goal?

A: Many of us entertain the notion of being in private practice, but few of us realize this notion for a variety of reasons. For instance, we hold ourselves back because of a lack of confidence in our knowledge of how to be self-employed. As a profession, we are strong clinically, but we are lacking in business sense. Being a well-trained and ethical counselor is the foundation for starting your own private practice. But while being competent is essential, it doesn’t mean you will make it in private practice. You also need to see yourself as a businessperson.

As a private practitioner, you need to think of yourself as the CEO of your own corporation. Not only do you need to make good clinical decisions, you also need to make good business decisions. Good business decisions inherently involve some risk. Risk-taking has a tendency to make us feel uncomfortable. But if your professional aspirations include private practice, you will need to deal with feeling uncomfortable on occasion. (And after all, isn’t this something we encourage our clients to do?) Feeling uncomfortable may result from competing with other counselors, ensuring you collect your fees, justifying why a managed care company should pay you, promoting yourself to the public, public speaking or demonstrating the confidence you have in your own abilities. But being uncomfortable will make you a better businessperson.

As a private practitioner, you need to think of yourself as an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur as defined by Webster’s Dictionary is someone who “organizes, manages and assumes the risks of a business or enterprise.” You will need to capitalize on changes or new trends. Many private practitioners resist managed health care and the need to cooperate with insurance companies. But if you understand and work with these systems and institutions, it can be both professionally and financially rewarding. Rather than looking for obstacles and threats to starting your practice, you need to look for ways to practice better, smarter or more efficiently, with an eye on the bottom line.

As a private practitioner, you need to think of yourself as a consultant. You are an expert in human behavior and relationships. These skills apply not only to clients and their families in your office but also to businesses, industries, organizations and institutions. Anywhere people want to improve or need to interact with each other, there is a potential need for your services.

As a private practitioner, you need to think of yourself as a marketing person. Interactions with others are always a good opportunity to promote yourself. You may promote yourself by attending a school staffing about a student you are counseling, making appointments with potential referral sources to inform them about the effectiveness of your services, offering to give a speech to a gathering, advising a managed health care company of your specialties or that you have evening and weekend appointments available, etc. You need to seize every opportunity to promote yourself and your services. If you don’t, some other counselor will.

Lastly, you need to think of yourself and your practice in terms of diversification. It is rare these days to make a satisfying living from a traditional office practice. Generally, it takes many “income streams” to survive on your own. That might mean taking part-time employment at an agency, school or employee assistance program; subleasing your office space; teaching; writing; lecturing; offering mediation services; consulting; supervising; and/or doing something that is closely related. Don’t attempt to put all your eggs in one basket.

Q: I’m a high school counselor who has lived and worked overseas for the past 15 years. I’m coming home to the United States in June 2007 and do not want to continue in the school systems. I would love to open my own practice but have no idea on if or how I can do this. Can a high school counselor, licensed in school counseling, start a practice? Is there a calling for that? What kind of additional licensing or credentials would I need to obtain to start my own practice? I really appreciate your time and input. It’s a dream of mine to (leave) the school system; I’m just not sure that I’m qualified to do such a thing.

A: I worked as a school counselor for 25 years and applied for a counseling license in the state of Illinois. I have been in practice for 30 years. It depends on the state you intend to practice in, but all the states that offer licensure require a practicum, passing the state exam for your license and meeting the requirements for supervised hours. Check the licensing regulations in your particular state of interest (, or e-mail me the state and I can forward you that information.

It is definitely doable, depending on the rules. As a school counselor, you may be positioned to help children and teens with school issues, which is a very good niche. Also check the American Counseling Association website at in the member’s-only section for information about several private practice issues, including start-up. Good luck with this, and welcome home.

Q: Thank you for your assistance in the past when I’ve asked questions. I have another one. I hope you can provide some guidance. I am going to start my own practice in 2007. I am going to be leaving a group practice with clients and starting a solo practice. I have considered becoming an LLC or an S Corporation. As a licensed professional counselor, is it smart to do this, or is it unnecessary? An accountant suggested I find out if LPCs can be shielded from liability with an LLC. If so, he suggested I consider this; if not, then he stated it might not be necessary to form an LLC or S Corporation. I would love some guidance.

A: We are not attorneys, but we have researched the web and found a useful site that briefly explains partnerships at The legal status of your practice partnership depends on the laws of the state in which you practice. You would need to find an attorney in that state who understands corporate partnership laws.

Three possibilities are a PC (Professional Corporation), Subchapter S Corp. or the LLC (Limited Liability Company). Each provides some protection and/or tax advantages. Bob Walsh is a PC in Illinois, while I have a joint venture agreement with my partner and have not incorporated. Just make sure that whatever you do, you also get the best malpractice policy.

Q: I am interested in a template for forming a partnership in a counseling private practice.

A: We are working on defining various types of partnerships and the benefits of each with an attorney. We understand there are basically four types of agreements: PC, LLC, Subchapter S and Joint Venture (see the answer to the previous question). Each state has different rules on legal partnerships.

We are including two websites that may help you get started with your agreement. We are not attorneys, so an attorney knowledgeable about partnership laws regarding counseling practices in your state should be consulted.

Also see our “Private Practice Pointers” on the ACA website, where we have several bulletins, including ones on selling, buying and starting up a private practice. Hope this helps. Good luck with your counseling business.

If you are going to attend the ACA Convention in March, consider attending our preconference Learning Institute on private practice. Also stop by our Walsh and Dasenbrook Consulting booth at the Exposition Center and preview our book, The Complete Guide to Private Practice for Licensed Mental Health Professionals. We will also be in the Career Center throughout the conference. Hope to see you there!